Learn to Remove Orange Peel for a Show Car Finish via Machine Dry Sanding!

[Mike Phillips]

Learn to Remove Orange Peel for a Show Car Finish via Machine Dry Sanding!

Next class is Friday September 29th, (paint correction day), Saturday September 30th (dry sanding day), and Sunday October 1st (extreme boat detailing day).

Call or text me to sign-up for this class. See the cars and boats you’ll be training on by clicking the link below

Training Cars and Boats for the September 3-Day Class

Training Cars and Boats for the September 3-Day Class Friday Class Topics Morning Session - Multiple Step Paint Corrections learning how to use rotary polishers, orbital polishers, plus Dr. Beasley's NSP Primers & Ceramic Coatings. 1937 Ford 2-door Sedan Delivery Streetrod -...

themikephillipsforum.com

Call or text me with questions

769-515-0444

Mike

 

[Mak]

Glad I watched this. Thought I was all set to go but looks like I need to order one of the thinner micro-hook interface pads… All I had purchased was the thicker soft foal pads. Getting ready to try my first cut and buff on a single-stage paint job I sprayed last fall on my old F100. I put down 3 coats, sanded flat with 600 and then sprayed another 2 coats on top of that (Although my coats tend to be thin because of that “sag & run” fear) and I end up with more orange peel and texture than I would otherwise…
I’ve planned on starting with the Eagle 1000 film, then move to the 1500 film, 2500 Buflex, and finally Trizact 8000. Then on to a wool pad, followed by black foam to polish.

 

[Mike Phillips]

I’ve planned on starting with the Eagle 1000 film, then move to the 1500 film, 2500 Buflex, and finally Trizact 8000. Then on to a wool pad, followed by black foam to polish.

That's a great multiple-step process you've outlined. I'm confident the final results will look amazing!


Mike

 

[Mak]

That's a great multiple-step process you've outlined. I'm confident the final results will look amazing!


Mike

I wish I was as confident. I’m fairly sure I’m going to burn through, leave sanding marks and otherwise destroy the end result of what has been a multi year restoration.

 

[Mike Phillips]

I wish I was as confident. I’m fairly sure I’m going to burn through, leave sanding marks and otherwise destroy the end result of what has been a multi year restoration.

Take your time, don't rush. You got this!


Also, for what it's worth, here's what I practice and teach in my classes.

Video: The Rule of Thumb - Sanding techniques by Mike Phillips


And I just saw after revisiting this article that I must have forgot to add the video? I'll look to see if I still have it with this same truck used in the picture above and if I do, I'll upload to YouTube and insert here.


Mike

 

[Mak]

Take your time, don't rush. You got this!


Also, for what it's worth, here's what I practice and teach in my classes.

Video: The Rule of Thumb - Sanding techniques by Mike Phillips


And I just saw after revisiting this article that I must have forgot to add the video? I'll look to see if I still have it with this same truck used in the picture above and if I do, I'll upload to YouTube and insert here.


Mike

Great tip. thank you.

 

[Mak]

Well, dipped my toe in the water this morning.
I started with a test section on the back of my cab which will be hidden behind the bed. Fortunately that is one spot that for some reason is among the worst for texture, so a good spot to practice. Think I was going too fast there and got a dry spray on the final coat.
Photos are not great, but tried to get the first shot showing the bad texture. Then one after 1000, 1500, and 2500. Another after the 5000. Then is after the wool pad with compound, and a few pics from after the foam pad and polish. Far from a professional job but if I can get through this without burning through, get the trash out, and flatten some of the orange peel and dry-sprayed areas, I can live with a few barely-there swirls and scratches.
Going to take a lot of practice/experience to get the hang of knowing how many passes with each abrasive stage. First stage with the 1000 is easiest because I can actually see the orange peel and stop when it’s nearly gone… Having a tough time with the finer abrasives after that and being able to see or know when all the previous grits scratches are gone. Heck, I’m having a tough time learning how much water to spray and keep on the surface with the Buflex and Trizact.
Several more stupid questions:
What setting/speed should I be running the Flex Beast with the wool pad? Foam polishing? I’ve been using 1….
I know the potential for burn through would be greater with a faster speed using my standard rotary, but wasn’t sure if faster speeds is more likely to cause noticeable pigtails or the RO scratches at faster vs slower…
How do I know how much compound is too much or not enough? How often should I be using the pad washer?
Sorry for all the rookie questions.

 

[Mike Phillips]

Well, dipped my toe in the water this morning.
I started with a test section on the back of my cab which will be hidden behind the bed. Fortunately that is one spot that for some reason is among the worst for texture, so a good spot to practice. Think I was going too fast there and got a dry spray on the final coat.
Photos are not great, but tried to get the first shot showing the bad texture. Then one after 1000, 1500, and 2500. Another after the 5000. Then is after the wool pad with compound, and a few pics from after the foam pad and polish. Far from a professional job but if I can get through this without burning through, get the trash out, and flatten some of the orange peel and dry-sprayed areas, I can live with a few barely-there swirls and scratches.
Going to take a lot of practice/experience to get the hang of knowing how many passes with each abrasive stage. First stage with the 1000 is easiest because I can actually see the orange peel and stop when it’s nearly gone… Having a tough time with the finer abrasives after that and being able to see or know when all the previous grits scratches are gone. Heck, I’m having a tough time learning how much water to spray and keep on the surface with the Buflex and Trizact.

Looking great so far!

Several more stupid questions:
What setting/speed should I be running the Flex Beast with the wool pad? Foam polishing? I’ve been using 1….
I know the potential for burn through would be greater with a faster speed using my standard rotary, but wasn’t sure if faster speeds is more likely to cause noticeable pigtails or the RO scratches at faster vs slower…
How do I know how much compound is too much or not enough? How often should I be using the pad washer?
Sorry for all the rookie questions.

I don't use wool pads on the BEAST any more. If I need the cutting power of a fiber pad I use a wool pad on a rotary .

When I use the BEAST, Supa BEAST or CBEAST - I'm almost always on the 6 speed setting unless I'm going up on edge to detail something intricate or a thin panel.

Use the rotary on around 1200rpm and clean your pad often. Buff until scratches are gone.

Use enough compound/polish so that after spreading the product over the surface to be buffed you can see a light film of product.


You would love one of our 3-day classes. Have to go - going LIVE in a few minutes.

Mike

 

[Mak]

You would love one of our 3-day classes. Have to go - going LIVE in a few minutes.

Mike

I wish I had found your site sooner and I would have already been through one. I’ll have to figure out how to make it happen one of these days. (Even though it will be after all the damage has been done.)
Even so, I still have my 68 Cougar I’ll be staring on next so at least it can look better than this one.

 

[Mak]

I don't use wool pads on the BEAST any more. If I need the cutting power of a fiber pad I use a wool pad on a rotary .

When I use the BEAST, Supa BEAST or CBEAST - I'm almost always on the 6 speed setting unless I'm going up on edge to detail something intricate or a thin panel.

Use the rotary on around 1200rpm and clean your pad often. Buff until scratches are gone.

Feels safer with the 3401 RO… Slower I know but it looks like it will get the scratches out. I was wondering until now if I would have to use the Rotary even though I’ve seen folks say they use a RO. Only experience I have with a Rotary is using it recently when tackling that polished aluminum problem. I definitely struggled to keep it flat and under control so was really afraid one wrong move and I would ruin the paint…

 

[Mak]

I’m so frustrated right now. Thought it was going well and now I’ve got a roof loaded with RO scratches and I have no idea what it’s from…
Appears that they are a result of after I ran the compound with the wool pad, but I don’t know how to isolate what caused the issue or how to fix. Seemed to be a lot more scratches before running the foam polishing pad than I had seen prior on the test panel.
I went through the exact same process as I did for the practice areas on the rest of the cab. I actually spent more time and made more passes with the 1500, 2500 Buflex, and Trizact 8000, trying to be sure I didn’t leave any scratches from the prior grits.
I was careful to wipe the panel clean with fresh microfiber cloths between each stage.
I was extra careful to keep my wool pad and foam pad clean and covered in between uses.
I think it looked smoother and more scratch-free before I used the wool pad.
I’m assuming the scratches were introduced when I used the wool buffing pad… If so, I just thought of one difference being that I ran on the highest speed this time when I used the lowest on my first test panel. The only other difference I just thought of was that I used a metal pad spur before I started the roof. It’s the same spur that I had previously used on the wool pad I had used when polishing the aluminum on the Panoz. Now I’m wondering if that spur introduced contaminates to the pad which then caused the scratching?
Aaaaagh! Now I’m wondering if I should be using a foam medium cutting pad stead of the wool. Unfortunately don’t have one on hand to go try. I guess I can go try a new fresh wool pad.
Ugh. I knew this wouldn’t go smoothly.
Could not get a photo to show the issue. Hoping the sun will come out in a while so I can push outside and maybe get some decent pics.

 

[Mike Phillips]

I’m so frustrated right now. Thought it was going well and now I’ve got a roof loaded with RO scratches and I have no idea what it’s from…

Appears that they are a result of after I ran the compound with the wool pad, but I don’t know how to isolate what caused the issue or how to fix. Seemed to be a lot more scratches before running the foam polishing pad than I had seen prior on the test panel.

What is the compound you're using?

 

[Mak]

What is the compound you're using?

3D ACA 510

 

[Mak]

Best pics I can get. Extreme close-up. Scratch pattern is consistent over the whole panel even though it can only bee seen right where the sun is hitting it. Easker to see by eye in the garage.
The large radius more random scratches I didn’t really notice in the dimmer light. The tiny small radius RO scratches that almost overlap and can be seen on the entire panel is what noticeable in the dimmer indoor light.

 

[Mike Phillips]

Ouch...

To me, the large pigtails I see in this resized picture look like polishing induced
scratches.

And I lean towards your thoughts that this is from a contaminated pad.

If it were me? I would get a new wool pad and use a rotary polisher and then test to see if the wool pad on a rotary with the 510 will remove these defects.

If not - you'll have to sand to level the paint and then remove the sanding marks.

I think you're going to continue running into these types of problems if you continue to use a wool pad on the BEAST.

I tried a few times in my life to use the FLEX BEAST with wool pads and always found they tend to scour the paint.

This is me last night, removing scratches out of the roof of a 1968 Charger. The rotary polisher is like a scalpel when used correctly.

Get a new pad and see if you can undo the damage. Maybe consider taking my 3-day class in May, it's going to completely hands-on and the first car you're going to learn how to use the rotary polisher on is a 1941 Grahm Hollywood.

I've actually ordered the 3M Trizact 3000 and 5000 sanding discs in 6" and 3" to machine sand the 1941 Grahm Hollywood Streetrod.

This be a great START to a great class.

May 3-Day Class - Training Cars and Boats - No chairs. No sitting. No PowerPoint

Airports - Hotels - Restaurants - Plus things to do in Stuart Florida!


Mike

 

[Mak]

Ok. grabbed a fresh wool pad and did a large section. Third pic is after the new wool pad and before the foam polishing. After the foam polishing pad it looks much better (The first two pics)
Both pads still on the beast. I tried before I saw your suggestion telling me again to try the Rotaty…. That scares me to death but I’ll go give that a shot next.
thanks so much for the help and advice. I’m definitely feeling like a bother to you now since nobody else seems to be participating .ive got to figure out how i can get in one of your classes in the future.

 

[Mike Phillips]

Ok. grabbed a fresh wool pad and did a large section. Third pic is after the new wool pad and before the foam polishing. After the foam polishing pad it looks much better (The first two pics)
Both pads still on the beast.

Good to hear!

I tried before I saw your suggestion telling me again to try the Rotary…. That scares me to death but I’ll go give that a shot next.

Learning the way of the rotary is simply a matter of spending a lot of time behind the rotary. Once you master the rotary - you'll have a valuable skill set that will save you time and enable you to remove serious defects so much faster than any orbital polisher.

thanks so much for the help and advice. I’m definitely feeling like a bother to you now since nobody else seems to be participating .ive got to figure out how i can get in one of your classes in the future.

You're no bother. This forum is not presently busy and I'm okay with that. I primarily use it for my own projects. If others want to join and contribute in a positive manner, I'm open to it.

I would be more active if I had more time, I just have so many other projects that require physical action or typing action.

 

[Mak]

Well, can’t get a good pic inside with my poor lighting but after going over it with the foam pad, I can live with the results.
My assumption at this stage is that the original wool pad was contaminated when I used the cleaning spur…
Fix was using a new foamed wool pad that I had, and hitting it with the Flex 14-2 Rotary. Followed that with the Flex 3401 RO and a black foam pad w/ 520. Both on the highest speeds.
Still some original random RO scratches here and there but I have to really hunt for them and they are not that continual scratch pattern covering the entire surface. Less scratches showing on that one panel than any of my other vehicles so I will leave it alone for now.
Next is on to the scarier stuff… the panels with body lines and sharp edges. Expect to go through several roles of tape….
Fingers crossed that I got those coats of paint on thick enough.

 

[Mike Phillips]

Next is on to the scarier stuff… the panels with body lines and sharp edges. Expect to go through several roles of tape….
Fingers crossed that I got those coats of paint on thick enough.

Yup. Edges and raised body lines - one of the most difficult areas to buff after sanding.

Because this is your own car, you have the option to invest as much time into this project as you like. If it were me? I would still practice "The Rule of Thumb".

I'm getting ready to teach a class how to sand and buff on 2 cars and 1 truck - and one of our primary goals is to not have anyone burn through the edges when it comes to the buffing portion of the class.

Pictures from the 5-day class in Chicago

Pictures from the 5-day class in Chicago Today is the first day of this BIG 5-day class. Yesterday after arriving into Chicago from Florida, we set-up for today. Something happened to the 1960 Impala that we we're scheduled to sand and buff but it's all good as it was replaced by I think, a...

themikephillipsforum.com

Fingers crossed.

 

[Mak]

Yup. Edges and raised body lines - one of the most difficult areas to buff after sanding.

Because this is your own car, you have the option to invest as much time into this project as you like. If it were me? I would still practice "The Rule of Thumb".

I'm getting ready to teach a class how to sand and buff on 2 cars and 1 truck - and one of our primary goals is to not have anyone burn through the edges when it comes to the buffing portion of the class.

Pictures from the 5-day class in Chicago

Pictures from the 5-day class in Chicago Today is the first day of this BIG 5-day class. Yesterday after arriving into Chicago from Florida, we set-up for today. Something happened to the 1960 Impala that we we're scheduled to sand and buff but it's all good as it was replaced by I think, a...

themikephillipsforum.com

Fingers crossed.

That has to be nerve-wracking even much more than usual when dealing with someone else’s car. Especially when you are dealing with other newbies who are doing the work… I had been wondering how that works. When looking at the beautiful cars in your videos and photos, I couldn’t imagine how you don’t run into problems with cutting through paint and clearcoat when you have that many people working on the vehicle who are all just learning. Not to mention having layers of unknown mil thickness to begin with…

 

[Mike Phillips]

That has to be nerve-wracking even much more than usual when dealing with someone else’s car. Especially when you are dealing with other newbies who are doing the work… I had been wondering how that works. When looking at the beautiful cars in your videos and photos, I couldn’t imagine how you don’t run into problems with cutting through paint and clearcoat when you have that many people working on the vehicle who are all just learning. Not to mention having layers of unknown mil thickness to begin with…

Yes, it's a challenge but over the last 15-20 years I've had nothing but great results.

I do constantly walk around the cars as the students are working and monitor the action taking place. When I see a potential problem, I stop the action and correct the problem. When I see proper technique, I let the student know they are on target.

We sanded down, buffed out and coated 3 cars in 2 days with plenty of time leftover on Tuesday. (class started Monday). As soon as I can, I'll share pictures. All 3 cars look freaking amazing, and the students were able to learn 3 brands for sanding and 4 different techniques.

No chairs. No sitting. No PowerPoint. LOL


Apologies for the delay in answering, I'm currently in Chicago starting the 4th day of a 5-day class.

5-Day Class - Pro Skills & Business - Chicago IL - April 8th through April 12th


Mike

 

[Mak]

Yes, it's a challenge but over the last 15-20 years I've had nothing but great results.

I do constantly walk around the cars as the students are working and monitor the action taking place. When I see a potential problem, I stop the action and correct the problem. When I see proper technique, I let the student know they are on target.

We sanded down, buffed out and coated 3 cars in 2 days with plenty of time leftover on Tuesday. (class started Monday). As soon as I can, I'll share pictures. All 3 cars look freaking amazing, and the students were able to learn 3 brands for sanding and 4 different techniques.

No chairs. No sitting. No PowerPoint. LOL


Apologies for the delay in answering, I'm currently in Chicago starting the 4th day of a 5-day class.

5-Day Class - Pro Skills & Business - Chicago IL - April 8th through April 12th


Mike

Sound like awesome classes. Definitely could have used the experience prior to this stage of my project.

I eventually did what I feared would happen and burned through on the sharpest most prominent spot on the front of the hood. The most likely area on the whole truck for it to happen, and I was getting tired and careless. Should have stopped for the day… I should have stayed away from the spot altogether but had a significant dry spray type texture on the hood and looked funny with the flats all smooth and the edges with remaining peel…

Had made my final spray either too soon after the previous coat or gone too fast which I did not think was the case. Anyway, I screwed-up with the Trizact 8000 and saw what I had done after wiping away the sanding slurry. Should have replaced the tape I had removed before deciding I needed to make one more set of passes… I’ve got to pick up a new tailgate next month and when I spray it I can probably repair damage.

The hood was a PITA. I thought it looked great after the wool pad and then found the whole surface covered with pigtails, larger rotational radius scratches and even longer random straight scratches I could not explain. Took two more passes with the wool pad and foam polishing to finally get it looking right. After the second set of passes I was about to scream and think I would never get it right. I still have to tape things off and do the leading edge in front of the seam but it should go quick. Working on the rest of the cab today.

 

[Mike Phillips]

I should have stayed away from the spot altogether but had a significant dry spray type texture on the hood and looked funny with the flats all smooth and the edges with remaining peel…

That's the downside to the technique I use and teach, The Rule of Thumb. It's a trade-off for perfection or almost perfection.


I admire the fact that you tackle this type of complicated project. Hats off to you.



Mike

 

[opie]

Excellent info you have given mike.

To Mak, dont be scared about a rotary. I was too when i first started with mine. Like mike says it just takes time behind the machine.

One simple think i did and still do because i am still learning, is i will feel the panel for generated heat as im compounding. Good litrle tactic to use to verify wiether you are to agressive and or to slow.

Mike is the guy to learn from for sure.

 

[Mak]

Excellent info you have given mike.

To Mak, dont be scared about a rotary. I was too when i first started with mine. Like mike says it just takes time behind the machine.

One simple think i did and still do because i am still learning, is i will feel the panel for generated heat as im compounding. Good litrle tactic to use to verify wiether you are to agressive and or to slow.

Mike is the guy to learn from for sure.

Now that I have some rookie experience with the rotary I’m no longer afraid of it.. actually haven’t had any problems burning through with it... My problems have been being careless and too aggressive with my abrasive paper steps. I stupidly thought the extra layers I have sprayed along that leading edge would be forgiving of my technique but that was not the case.

Just part of the learning curve I guess since this is my first ever doing a cut and buff on a new paint job. Oh well, if I’m unable to blend in and get a repair that I can’t see then I will just tape-off and respray that entire leading edge. Since it has the seam there it would make for an easy re-spray when I do the tailgate which is the only remaining thing left for me to spray.

At least it‘s less likely that I have any more burn through aside from the few spots I have on the front of the hood. That was the areas with the most likely problems due to the edges and shapes where I had to sand and because I had too much orange peel or a dry-spray looking result.

The doors, fenders, and bed sides that remain don‘t have such tough areas to work around or deal with, and I also don’t have the texture problem I did with the hood.

Definitely thankful to have found this site and to be benefiting from Mike’s instructional materials and the time he’s taken to provide the personal feedback.

 

[opie]

I've never met mike, but as big as he is, he has never been the type to not help out the average bear and pass along his wealth of knowledge. Even for the folks who have never paid to take his classes.

I too am grateful. He has helped me tremendously with his years of articles out there ready to be read and watched.

 

[Mak]

Ive never met mike, but as big as he is, he has never been the tyle to not help out the average bear, and pass along his wealth of knowledge. Even for the folks who have never paid to take his classes.

I to am greatful. He has helped me tremendously with his years of articles out there ready to be read and watched

I wish I had run across he and his classes soon enough to have benefited from them with this current project. Even though it’s too late for this near completed restoration, I hope to find a way to get into one of his future classes before I get to final stages of my next car. Will be money well spent.

 

[Mike Phillips]

I've never met mike, but as big as he is, he has never been the type to not help out the average bear and pass along his wealth of knowledge. Even for the folks who have never paid to take his classes.

I too am grateful. He has helped me tremendously with his years of articles out there ready to be read and watched.

Thank you for the kind words. I base how I interact on empathy. I know what it's like when first starting out, there's a lot to learn and so many opinions on how to do everything. I think I shared this aspect in my interview with Dennis Gage a few years ago.

Dennis Gage - a true cool cat.


Mike

 

[Mike Phillips]

For what it's worth... Yancy and I will be sharing tips and techniques for hand wet sanding and using rotary polishers this Wednesday.

Remove Orange Peel from BLACK Paint! - LIVE Detailing Class!

One of the training cars for our upcoming May 3-day detailing class has arrived early and I've taken some pictures to photo-document just how BAD this fresh, custom paint job looks! See more pictures below.

For this class I'll be showing the Harbor Freight Hercules Wet/Dry Sandpapers. We go live at 4:00pm Eastern.

We'll also be using this car next week for our LIVE detailing class as we show how to remove orange peel out of black paint using the Harbor Freight Hercules Sanding Discs with the Bauer 8mm free spinning random orbital polisher as the sander.

Mike

 

[Mak]

Thank you for the kind words. I base how I interact on empathy. I know what it's like when first starting out, there's a lot to learn and so many opinions on how to do everything. I think I shared this aspect in my interview with Dennis Gage a few years ago.

Dennis Gage - a true cool cat.


Mike

Great video. I also (I think) learned a little something more about the detailing world when you mentioned Mckee… I had actually made a purchase from Mckees37 a while back and had never heard of the company until I had been doing some shopping searches and price comparing. Sounds like the guy behind Autogeek moved on with that venture after selling AutoGeek.

 

[Mak]

Wow! That peel looks far worse than what I’ve been dealing with on my first spray job. I’ve got the session on my calendar and will make a point to be back from fishing by then…

 

[Mike Phillips]

Great video. I also (I think) learned a little something more about the detailing world when you mentioned Mckee… I had actually made a purchase from Mckees37 a while back and had never heard of the company until I had been doing some shopping searches and price comparing. Sounds like the guy behind Autogeek moved on with that venture after selling AutoGeek.

Autoeek has completely went downhill since Bob sold the company to Tony George. It hung in there for a while but then Yancy, the videographer left, then I left and then another half dozen key employees left and we all left for the same reason. Toxic work environment.

Like the cliche goes,

It is what it is...


Mike

 

[dbrun]

Before I took Mike’s class, I had only used a rotary on gelcoat. When I first started the rotary was in control. I did learn on my own to handle it better.

Fast forward after I took Mike’s class and now, I look forward to grabbing a rotary. He gives you the confidence and show you these skills to use one.

If you can, I highly recommend his class. This was first car I used with rotary when I came back from his class. Because it’s fiberglass and didn’t know how thick paint was, I didn’t go at it too hard, but the point is he gave the confidence and skills to go for it.

Car wasn't perfect but turned out very well.

 

[Mike Phillips]

Car wasn't perfect but turned out very well.

Looks perfect to me. Nice work. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Mak]

Before I took Mike’s class, I had only used a rotary on gelcoat. When I first started the rotary was in control. I did learn on my own to handle it better.

Fast forward after I took Mike’s class and now, I look forward to grabbing a rotary. He gives you the confidence and show you these skills to use one.

If you can, I highly recommend his class. This was first car I used with rotary when I came back from his class. Because it’s fiberglass and didn’t know how thick paint was, I didn’t go at it too hard, but the point is he gave the confidence and skills to go for it.

Car wasn't perfect but turned out very well.

Looks great. I think I’ve got the courage up to go after my 02 Z06 pretty soon . It’s definitely showing its age after many years as my daily driver.